tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post1099864091568080989..comments2024-03-28T19:20:52.408+00:00Comments on WEMBLEY MATTERS: Brent debates anti-semitismUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post-40267973676223958942016-06-03T20:29:09.677+01:002016-06-03T20:29:09.677+01:00Ok. A simple question. Do you believe, or given th...Ok. A simple question. Do you believe, or given the absence of readily available empirical evidence, would you be prepared to speculate, that British Muslim Labour Party members would be (a) more inclined (b) less inclined or (c) equally inclined as/than non-Muslim British Labour Party members, to feel positively towards 1. Israeli foreign and domestic policy 2. Zionism 3. Jewish people? Honest answer?<br />As for generalising from experience and observation, that's what human beings do. It's the basis of scientific advance and on a simpler level it's why we don't spend our lives repeatedly putting our hands in the fire in an effort to discover whether these flames are any cooler than the ones that burnt us last time. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post-15355121824118005162016-06-03T20:02:27.011+01:002016-06-03T20:02:27.011+01:00The comparison with Chilcot and Iraq is irrelevant...The comparison with Chilcot and Iraq is irrelevant. I haven't looked at all the individual instances of the 20 plus suspensions that have taken place and given that some I do know about did not involved anti-Semitic remarks being made, I for one would not want to pre-judge the cases, which may have been brought for entirely other reasons. If someone were to pre-judge these cases on the basis of the ethnic or religious identity of the individuals involved, I think that would be pretty problematic. Likewise generalisations from your own experience about how people you have never met feel about people of another religion is subjective and potentially inflammatory.Mike Phippshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13877200347008016332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post-28521547487592567612016-06-03T12:04:11.123+01:002016-06-03T12:04:11.123+01:00Why the question mark in the first sentence? Eithe...Why the question mark in the first sentence? Either you think it’s racist or you don’t. It’s anecdotal and observational but life tends to be that way. And as far as waiting for the outcome of the 'proper hearing' is concerned, I doubt if you’re waiting for Chilcott in order to decide what you think of Blair and Iraq.<br />There have been 16 or 18 suspensions (accounts vary). Of the 12 names I have, 9 are Muslim. That leaves 4 or 6 unknown. This could, of course, be a statistical aberration, a mere chance, which is why I attempted to give some possible reasons for it. For a significant proportion of young Muslims (in my necessarily anecdotal but fairly wide experience) the default position is not an inordinate love of Jewish people. As I said, the reasons for this are not difficult to find but to close down discussion by alleging racism is an easy way out which helps no one and leads to some of the reactions we are witnessing in the EU referendum ‘debate’.<br />As far as the rest of your points are concerned, I agree with everything after the word ‘anti-Zionism’ to the end. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post-44154011476580504842016-06-02T22:48:46.347+01:002016-06-02T22:48:46.347+01:00Because it's racist? Even if it were the case ...Because it's racist? Even if it were the case that most of the suspensions were of Muslims - there have been over 20, are you sure of your breakdown? - you are pre-judging the cases before there has been a proper hearing. Jackie Walker for example was suspended and is of partly Jewish heritage. She has since been reinstated, after a grassroots campaign, as there was no evidence of anti-Semitism. It's not "many Jewish people", by the way, that have a problem with separating anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. The two are deliberately conflated by the Israeli government to demonise critics of Israel. But it should also be said that there are those in the broader labour movement that are willing to use the anti-Semitismm stick with which to beat the current leadership, even if most of the alleged incidents/remarks that are under investigation occurred before it took over. Things have gone a bit quieter on these issues since the May elections - which suggests that it may have largely been whipped up for party political purposes, rather like the allegations of Sadiq Khan's associations with extremists, now conveniently laughed off as the "rough and tumble" of electioneering.Mike Phippshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13877200347008016332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2129943063330427887.post-74720202500919793802016-06-02T21:19:23.499+01:002016-06-02T21:19:23.499+01:00There has been a massive elephant in the room sinc...There has been a massive elephant in the room since this issue started to exercise the media a few weeks ago. The great majority of the Labour members accused, quoted, cited, suspended etc have been Muslims. Ken Livingstone was speaking in defence of one of these accused (though he has also said stupid things in the past which have got him accused of anti-Semitism). There are understandable historical reasons why many Muslims are anti the policies of recent Israeli governments and these views can, by understandable extension and association, become anti-Zionist, and by mistaken extension and association become anti-Semitic. There are also many Jewish people who mistakenly, but for understandable historical reasons, see any criticism of the policies of recent Israeli governments , or of Zionism, or of Israel itself, as being anti-Semitic. It has astonished me that nobody in the respectable media feels able to comment on these things in a realistic way. Muslims now play a much greater part in the Labour party than they did in the past (as they play a much greater part in UK society in general, as anyone receiving medical treatment in hospital or from a GP can attest). Some of these Labour party Muslims display the views I’ve mentioned above. I don’t think ‘The Labour Party’ has a problem with anti-Semitism; I think some Muslims (many of whom now support or are active in the party) have a problem with anti-Semitism. And many Jewish people have a problem with distinguishing between the understandable and rational criticism of the current Israeli government and the irrational and unacceptable phenomenon of anti-Semitism.<br />Isn’t all the above self-evident? Why isn’t anyone saying it?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com